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Time to Get the Sledge Hammers Out

Although the loss of the opportunity to see the first woman become the president of the United States was both devastating and completely unpredictable (at least to me, as evidenced by my blog post here), as criminal defense attorneys we have a first-hand understanding that, when an injustice occurs, that means it’s our time to gear up for a fight. This isn’t the time to sit on the sidelines, feeling sorry for ourselves and fearful of what comes next. It’s time to get our sledge hammers out and start forcing the glass ceiling open ourselves. As much as I believed that this election would serve as a statement that things were changing for women through Hillary winning, her loss is a statement of how deep the roots of inequality still are for women in our culture when a supremely qualified woman is passed over for a man with no experience. It was hard to explain to my eight-year-old daughter what happened and why our country didn’t celebrate or embrace the opportunity to put the first woman into the White House. And on hearing the news, she was shattered and angry. Hillary spoke to her and countless other young girls in her concession speech when she said: To all the women and especially the young women who put their faith in this campaign and in me, I want you to know that nothing has made me prouder then to be your champion. Now, I know, I know we have still not shattered that highest and hardest glass ceiling, but some day someone will and hopefully sooner than we might think right now. And to all the little girls who are watching this, never doubt that you are valuable and powerful and deserving of every change and opportunity in the world to pursue and achieve your own dreams. So what to do? For me the answer is simple, we have to dig deeper and do more. This isn’t the time to stop. It’s time to ramp up. I personally refuse to accept that we are second- or third-class citizens. I am not accepting the scraps from the men that will be holding the power in this country come January. We have to work together to change that. We need to walk the walk. We need to open doors for each other. We need to make sure that we include each other at every table we are seated at. We need to take our successes and stop simply asking for them. We need to refuse to accept second-chair positions and insignificant token roles just so we can be in the room. And above all – as many times as I have said this on this blog I will say it again until I am blue in the face – we need to SEND EACH OTHER BUSINESS. We are the only ones who are going to assure our own success. If this election teaches us one thing, it is that we need to take primary responsibility in looking out for one another out there. The post Time to Get the Sledge Hammers Out appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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What Makes a Great Defender – Lessons Gained from Experience

In this post, I am returning to my “What Makes a Great Defender” series. Through these posts, I want to share the lessons I’ve learned in being a woman criminal defense attorney. I truly believe that women defenders have unique gifts and perspective on defending and the art of persuasion, and that it is through sharing our thoughts and our history that we can continue to build one another up in the profession. In this series, I have previously addressed the skills of judgment (which I will return to in the future because its importance cannot be overstated) as well as heart. Now I want to turn to the invaluable lessons that experience gives you. I know that it sounds obvious to trumpet the importance of experience, but it can be easy to take experience for granted, especially when we are some years into our careers. We have to remember that we are gaining new experiences no matter how many years we have been in the profession, and there are always new experiences to add into our arsenal and store for later use. Experience is not simply an issue of time in the trenches or age. Experience is what we gain when we are open to learning and willing to do something new so that we can tackle the same situation in the future. We all have to risk failing and making mistakes to learn. Case in point, in a recent trial it was obvious at some point that we would not sit a jury from the first panel and that we would eventually require a second panel to sit the jury. Now when I was younger, I wouldn’t have paid attention to this fact. I would have continued to focus on each individual juror deciding if 1) I had a for cause challenge, and 2) if I did or did not want to exercise a peremptory challenge. But, since I am a student of experience, I remembered the lessons learned from an earlier episode in my career involving the necessity of a second panel. In that previous experience, I had used all of my peremptory challenges during the first panel, so that, by the time we reached the second panel, I had no peremptory challenges, giving our side a sense of powerlessness affecting the final formation of the jury. Powerlessness in selecting a criminal jury is the kind of lessons that one never forgets. So, in this recent trial, when I realized that a second panel was inevitable based on elementary mathematics, I decided I would keep a few people that were otherwise not my favorite jurors but whom I could live with, but with the benefit of saving one peremptory challenge. Fortunately for my client, the government lawyers had not retained the same lessons that I had and did in fact exhaust their peremptory challenges during the first panel. Although I only had the one peremptory challenge left, one was all I needed to make all the difference. By holding the power of the peremptory challenge I was able to keep a juror that was open to our theory of defense. The prosecution had successfully challenged all others jurors open to that theory from the first panel, but as they had no peremptory challenges left for the second panel, there was nothing they could do to keep this juror off the jury. My client was acquitted at trial, and without question this juror was a powerful influence for our side. I truly believe that if it was not for that one juror that the client might not have been acquitted. And the one thing that made the difference was the experience to know to maintain a peremptory challenge at all cost. Every day that we do this job is an opportunity to learn and gain more experience. And the lesson that you learn today may very well provide you the experience to make a call that walks your client out of jail. Three previous posts that exemplify the “What Makes a Great Defender” series are here, here and from guest blogger Ellen Brotman  here. I want to invite anyone that reads this post and is a women defender to write a post on How to be a Great Defender and send it to me. The post What Makes a Great Defender – Lessons Gained from Experience appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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Interview of Rebecca LeGrand, Partner at Kaiser, LeGrand & Dillon PLLC

This week I had the privilege of talking to Rebecca LeGrand, a partner at Kaiser, LeGrand & Dillon PLLC in Washington, DC.  She has vast experience representing individuals facing criminal charges in federal court or subject to a government investigation. Before joining Kaiser, LeGrand & Dillon, Rebecca worked as a litigator at Williams & Connolly LLP and Robbins, Russell, Englert, Orseck, Untereiner & Sauber LLP, where she represented both individuals and corporate clients in high-stakes civil and criminal litigation.  Rebecca also worked as a volunteer attorney at the Office of the Federal Public Defender for the District of Maryland, where she helped clients navigate complex sentencing issues and criminal investigations.  Rebecca graduated from Yale Law School, where she was the co-editor-in-chief of the Yale Journal of Health Policy. Her undergraduate degree is from Brown University and she has a master’s degree from Duke in evolutionary biology.  I hope you will love getting to know Rebecca as much as I did. What drew you towards a career in criminal defense? I like being on the side of the underdog, and working with individuals who desperately need someone on their side when it feels like all the powers that be have turned on them. You have your own criminal defense firm with two other partners. Can you describe your path to opening up your own firm? I was looking for a different way to practice law.  I was incredibly lucky to start my career at Williams & Connolly, which was a great place to learn how to be a litigator, but I never saw myself as a big firm person. I heard stories from the old guard about what Williams & Connolly was like when it was just starting out, and that sounded like such a great way to practice law.  The legal market is different now, but there are still a lot of clients who need zealous, smart, representation and want to (or have to) work with a smaller firm.  I wanted to create that firm, and I got incredibly lucky to find partners who shared that vision. What have been some of your proudest moments in representing clients? I’m really proud of this recent three-day evidentiary hearing where I represented a client in a post-conviction matter.  It is a female client who I believe was wrongfully convicted.  There were so many ways that the system let her down when she was tried and convicted.  Finally having a zealous advocate fight for her and share her story was so meaningful for her and her family.  That responsibility is humbling, and it’s why you do this work.  I’m also very proud of the work that I do outside the courtroom, behind the scenes.  It’s a devastating thing to be charged with a crime at all.  When I can help a client navigate an investigation to avoid criminal charges I know I’ve done something really significant to protect them and their families from that trauma. How did the presence of women mentors or lack thereof impact your career? I wish I’d done more to cultivate mentors in general when I was younger.  It’s so important to have those relationships, but it’s easy to neglect when you are juggling cases and feel like you are spending so much time keeping up with emails.  I didn’t have a lot of women to look to as mentors, and that does make it harder.  Because of that, I really appreciate the women who took time to mentor me even when I was an annoying associate and did not necessarily make it easy – I give a hat tip to Kathy Zecca on that point. There aren’t enough of us out there and we have to stick together. Of the women that you admire in the field, what do you find inspiring about them? Simply that they are putting themselves out there, even when the deck is stacked against them, and finding a way to do the work they want, and doing it well. Most important weapon in your defense arsenal? My science background.  In fact I rely on my science background in defending clients, even though I’m not working anywhere near a lab anymore. My science training taught me to approach evidence in a rigorous way.  And I really enjoy working with numbers and big data sets, which is an important skill when I’m dealing with, say, a complex financial case.  Sometimes I get to use science even more directly—like cross-examining a government expert—but I use that training in less direct ways as well to help me think about the facts of a case, and the government’s proof, or lack thereof. Best advice you ever received? ...
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U.S. Census Reports that a Large Gender Pay Gap Still Remains in the Law

The ABA reported that full-time female lawyers earn 77% of their male counterparts. These numbers are based on the release of the U.S. Census Bureau data which was collected in 2014, and released earlier this month.  In all law-related jobs, the median pay for female workers in 2014 was 51.6 % of the pay of male workers.  This reflects a much larger gap because there is still a disproportionate amount of women holding paralegal and support staff positions and pay in those areas is substantially lower. Some other interesting data about the inequity of women working in the legal profession are as follows: Female paralegals and legal assistants earned 94% of male paralegal’s pay Female judges, magistrates and other judicial workers earned 71.8% of men’s pay in those occupations Female legal support workers made 73.7% of the pay of male legal support workers. Fusion also reported on the large gap in both law and business.  The article quotes Laura Bellows, the past president of the ABA, who expressed the challenges that women face in the “eat what they kill” motto of winning business because they are more likely to work part-time. Bellows also told Fusion that women face challenges in negotiating higher salaries. “Are women good negotiators? Yes,” Bellows said. “But women are often labeled as greedy and aggressive and not team driven when asking for a well-deserved raise and bonus. Men who ask are viewed as strong and good negotiators hard workers worthy of consideration for an increase.” So what is the takeaway from this new wave of dismal statistics?  All women lawyers need to be aware  of the statistics above not just for themselves, but for the women surrounding them.  While there are plenty of female lawyers that are flourishing, the average woman lawyer is still making 77% of their male counterpart. This is just plain unacceptable.  We owe it to ourselves to care  about this issue, whether or not it personally affects us, because this is an issue for all women lawyers. It will take a collective response from all women in law to demand equal pay, and until we can stand united, nothing will change. The post U.S. Census Reports that a Large Gender Pay Gap Still Remains in the Law appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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Four Superhero Women Embark to Break Open the Glass Ceiling

Once upon a time, four great women were asked to participate on a panel about the effects of gender in the courtroom at the ABA White Collar Conference but instead of simply opining about the topic- they decided to conduct their own research and find real answers.  These superhero women were: Moderator Patricia Brown Holmes, a Partner at Riley Safer Holmes & Cancila Ellen Brickman, Ph.D. Director, DOAR a litigation consulting firm Laura Colombell Marshall, Partner, Hunton & Williams LLP Joan McPhee, Partner Ropes & Gray LLP The panel was titled Women in the Courtroom: A View from the Jury Box.  I spoke to Joan McPhee last week about the study and the panel discussion, which I unfortunately missed.  She told me that when they first started to explore the topic it was disappointing to discover there was very little if any data or research on the topic.  This inspired them to conduct their own research to get to the bottom of many questions such as: How do jurors view male and female attorneys? How does a juror’s gender influence perception of attorney effectiveness? Does attorney gender have power to influence the ultimate outcome? Thankfully they had Ellen Brickman on the panel from DOAR Litigation, a Ph.D. with extensive experience in conducting juror research. A study was developed using a pool of 880 mock jurors of equal gender from major metropolitan areas from around the country.  These jurors were surveyed using two components. One was the IAT (Implicit Association Test) measuring implicit biases and the other was a survey that included an attorney opening statement case scenario.  They had the jurors read the opening statement, which was identical except one version described the attorney as female and the other described the attorney as male. The jurors then were asked questions with reference to the gender of the attorney about their perceptions of the opening statement and its effectiveness across a range of attributes.  You can read more details about the study in the PowerPoint presentation here.  The most amazing finding from this study was that male jurors have an automatic preference for male lawyers, and female jurors have an automatic preference for female lawyers.  Even more surprising, the women’s preferences were much stronger. If conducting their own research wasn’t enough, these women also conducted an attorney survey of experiences relating to gender bias. They found that 72% of female colleagues surveyed reported negative experiences with colleagues because of their gender, 69% reported negative experiences with opposing counsel, and 43% reported negative experiences from judges.  The take away is that gender bias is alive and well in our field. When I spoke to Joan she shared with me how surprised she was by certain parts of the study’s findings.  Having anticipated that gender stereotypes embedded in our culture might lead both male and female jurors to have automatic preferences for the male attorney, and to prefer the male opening statement as stronger and more effective, it was notable that male and female jurors each held a clear preference for the attorney of their own gender with the female jurors exhibiting a preference for the female attorney that was twice as strong as the male jurors’ preference for the male attorney. Given that juries are gender diverse, Joan noted that, all other things being equal, these results suggest that a gender-diverse trial team should have an edge at trial in connecting with jurors and maximizing persuasiveness.  She noted that the jurors’ preferences for the attorney of their own gender was reflected in the results of both the IAT, in the form of an “automatic preference,” and in the opening statement case scenario.  Specifically, with regard to the latter, female jurors found the female attorney’s opening statement to be clearer and more logical and to reflect greater care for the client. The reverse was true for the male jurors.  She noted that the recent ABA report on women as first chair found that, for women serving in lead counsel roles at trial, almost 70% appear for the government as prosecutors and only 30% for the defense. Joan questioned, in light of the research findings and the government’s apparent greater ability to field a strong, gender-diverse trial team, whether we are effectively “ceding an advantage to the Government.” This study suggests that the defendant has a clear disadvantage if the only female in the courtroom is at the Government’s counsel table. Ellen Brickman cautioned, based on her years of experience in working with mock juries, that jurors are sensitive to how women and minorities are treated as members of a team, and that just having a token female member at counsel table who is not playing an active role has the opposite effect and can backfire. Joan also spoke to me about the “Audition Screen” that has been written about extensively, and which involved a symphony conducting blind auditions of musicians using screens and carpeted floors to mask any information about the gender of the performers.  Orchestra directors traditionally had a strong preference for men, believing that men were better able to perform at the highest levels of the field, particularly with certain instruments that were viewed to require a level of physical strength and stamina.  The judges were shocked that one of the best performers turned out be a petite woman.  Audition screens thereafter came into more prevalent use and, when the judges’ implicit bias against female performers was walled off and removed from the selection process, the result was a dramatic increase in the number of women being chosen. What does that tell us? Joan would say that our own implicit biases may interfere unconsciously with our ability to identify and promote the strongest talent, to the detriment not only of those passed over, but also to the overall performance of the team.  In the context of a criminal trial, with our clients’ liberty on the line – if we are to field the strongest team and harness full persuasive power with a gender-diverse jury – we cannot ignore the potential role of gender in the courtroom. Joan challenged the audience and and all of us to ask, “What is going to be our trial lawyer’s equivalent of the Audition Screen?” The post Four Superhero Women Embark to Break Open the Glass Ceiling appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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Florida Bar Study Reflects Shameful Statistics for Young Women Lawyers

The Florida Bar’s Young Lawyer Division just released a random survey of young women lawyers who are 35 years or under or who have been practicing for five or less years.  The results reflect that 43% of the women surveyed reported experiencing some form of gender discrimination.  Not surprisingly, the survey has received national attention such as here and here. The ABA Journal summarized the findings of the survey as 43 percent said they had experienced gender bias in their careers. 40 percent said they had experienced insensitivity by their employer or supervisor. 37 percent said they had experienced lack of recognition of work-life balance. 17 percent said they had experienced harassment. 21 percent said they believed they were not being paid the same as their male counterparts. What is so sobering about these statistics is that they belong to the young women just entering the profession. The personal accounts shared by the women who participated in the survey, are not a shock to any woman reading this blog who became a lawyer twenty years ago. But the reality that gender bias is still pervasive and affecting a high percentage of young women lawyers entering the profession today is disturbing. The personal accounts included descriptions of being drunk-dialed by senior partners, offers by opposing counsel to run away together, or being assumed to be a court reporter or the boss’s assistant while seated at counsel table.  Many of the young women lawyers reported being called “blondie,” “little lady lawyer,” “honey,” or “sweetheart” by other attorneys and judges both inside or outside of the courtroom.  Women described being told they didn’t need to worry about making money because they either had or would have a husband to cover living expenses.   The Florida Bar President Ramon Abadin was quoted in the Sun Sentinel as saying that the 90 pages of comments in the report “were just sobering. It’s like a bucket of cold water.” Read the comments from the actual survey here. I for one, am embarrassed that women that have been in this profession for less than five years still have to endure this kind of discrimination. So how do we begin to resolve these problems? First, openly discussing them is a great start. Secondly, men in the field that are participating in this kind of behavior need to be exposed.  Finally, women that have been in the field for many years need to take stock and ask themselves if they are doing everything they can to affect change for themselves, other women in the field, and for women that will follow.   I believe that a culture of fear has existed among women lawyers for many years. This culture promotes women minimizing and criticizing any other woman that complains about bias. This culture promotes women staying silent rather than speaking up against blatant discrimination in fear of affecting their own advancement, losing a referral source, or losing a seat at the table of men. This hasn’t had the effect of stopping bias- it has allowed it to grow and fester. I do not intend to blame other women for what are obvious and intentional acts of discrimination but women have the power to reach out to help one another and there is simply no excuse for continuing to refuse to do so based on a false sense of fear. Even if a few of us succeed by remaining silent in the end we all lose. The post Florida Bar Study Reflects Shameful Statistics for Young Women Lawyers appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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Lisa Cahill Represents Woman Exonerated After Serving 10 Years

Most independent observers don’t realize this, but the judicial system is stacked against our clients in every way. We get a front row seat to watch the injustices pile up every day. And we face defeat far more often than we experience the sweetness of victory. That may be why, when our advocacy results in a victory for a client, that success is forever etched in our minds. Some of the obvious examples are Not Guilty verdicts, a motion granted, or obtaining a sentence variance or mitigation. But one of the most powerful moments you can experience as a criminal defense lawyer has to be standing with someone exonerated after serving time based on a wrongful conviction. I have only had this experience once in my career, but that moment could carry me for a lifetime. The sense of relief and joy is overwhelming. When someone finally listens to cries that had previously fallen on deaf ears, the catharsis is both surreal and hard to fully grasp in the moment. Lisa Cahill shared such a moment with her client last week. Cahill represented Vanessa Gathers along with the Legal Aid Society and helped to vacate Gather’s manslaughter conviction. Gathers spent 10 years in prison based on a coerced confession, which was the only evidence presented at trial. Her exoneration is related to a string of wrongful convictions at the hands of Detective Scarcella, whose questionable tactics of investigation in multiple murder cases recently came to light after many years. Reading about his means-to-an-end attitude in obtaining convictions is both revolting and chilling. As Cahill properly notes, many people’s lives were destroyed and damaged by his actions. At the hearing to vacate the conviction, The New York Times quoted Cahill honoring Scarcella’s victims: “Today is a joyous day for all of us, but there is a bittersweet tinge to all this, and that is the victim and his family,” she said. “In many respects they were as much victims of Detective Scarcella as Ms. Gathers was.”  What a great victory for the client and for Lisa Cahill! Cahill’s grace in the moment of victory must be commended. She stood tall with her client and demonstrated the heart of a champion.   The post Lisa Cahill Represents Woman Exonerated After Serving 10 Years appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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Elizabeth Macedonio and Diane Ferrone win a stunning victory in Asaro trial

Vincent Asaro was just acquitted at trial in the Eastern District of New York of charges related to the ‘Lufthansa Heist’ depicted in the movie GoodFellas.  And by his side at trial were two prominent female criminal lawyers: lead attorney, Elizabeth Macadonio, and co counsel, Diane Ferrone. This was probably one of the biggest mafia trials in most recent history – but unlike other organized crime trials, Vincent Asaro walked out of the courtroom flanked by his two lawyers after a jury acquitted him of all counts. I loved watching a video of Asaro walking out of the courthouse, arm around his two female criminal defenders saying, “I’d like to thank my two lawyers, without them I wouldn’t be here now.” You can watch the same video in the New York Times article, “Vincent Asaro, Accused in Lufthansa Heist, is Found Not Guilty.”   The trial has been closely followed by the media and was based entirely on paid Government snitches, including Asaro’s own cousin.  The defense reportedly did minimal cross examinations, and put on only two witnesses. They later came out swinging in closing argument, focusing on the credibility of paid snitch witnesses. It was reported that Macedonia argued that the cooperators were “despicable people” and “accomplished liars.” She went on to explain to the jurors that they would have to rely on career criminals, expert liars and confessed killers to convict Mr. Asaro – obviously points that were persuasive to the jury. You can read The New York Times detailed portions of the closing arguments here and in the Wall Street Journal here. Ironically, another fact that caught the media’s attention was the gender of Asaro’s counsel – I am not the only one paying attention to the strong defense provided by his female attorneys. Bloomberg Business published an article entitled ‘Goodfellas’ trial, macho lawyers give way as women take over,’ which called the Asaro trial both an ’anomaly’ and a ‘sign of progress’ for women in the field. The Bloomberg article also cited the fact that men are almost four times more likely to act as lead counsel in criminal trial defense based on the ABA study we highlighted early this year. The image of the acquitted client flanked by two women defenders is so powerful it transcends the case – more powerful than any article, blog post, or interview. It creates a lasting picture of women defenders, and speaks to the fact that we are fighters, victors, and successful. Bravo to Elizabeth and Diana for a job well done and for moving us all forward. The post Elizabeth Macedonio and Diane Ferrone win a stunning victory in Asaro trial appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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Joan Meyer negotiates NPA for Swiss Bank Client

Just last week the Justice Department announced that three more banks reached resolutions under the Swiss Bank Program. All three banks entered Non Prosecution Agreements (NPA’s) with the Department of Justice. The financial settlements ranged from over 3 million to 59 million, and totaled approximately 81 million in penalties recovered by the US Government. Joan Meyer of Baker McKenzie represented Bank CIC, which entered into an agreement to pay over 3 million dollars in penalties. Joan is the chair of Baker & McKenzie’s North America Compliance and Investigations Practice Group, and she handles investigations and white-collar matters. A more detailed account of the Swiss Bank Program is described here.  Under the program, banks meeting the following requirements are eligible for a non-prosecution agreement (NPA): Make a complete disclosure of their cross-border activities; Provide detailed information on an account-by-account basis for accounts in which U.S. taxpayers have direct or indirect interest; Cooperate in treaty requests for account information; Provide detailed information as to other banks that transferred funds into secret accounts or that accepted funds when secret accounts were closed; Agree to close accounts of account holders who fail to come into compliance with U.S. reporting obligations; and Pay appropriate penalties. If you read the particulars of the cooperation in the press release and the NPA’s here, you will see that, as a component of that cooperation, the  banks also provided information on individuals — an extra step that was not strictly required. Is this the Yates Memo in action? I am not the only one who is asking those kind of questions, as they are also asked in an interview conducted with the law professor who wrote “Too Big to Jail.” It is certainly food for thought. But most importantly I wanted to congratulate Joan on a job well done for her client. The post Joan Meyer negotiates NPA for Swiss Bank Client appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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Mary Chartier is Successfully Defending Clients in Lansing, Michigan

We are always looking for cases involving women defenders in the news. This week I was struck by the fact that Mary Chartier, a criminal defense attorney from Lansing, Michigan, had two stories featured this year – both recognized her for successfully defending clients. First, in early 2015 she represented a client at trial and obtained a ‘Not Guilty’ verdict for an attempted murder charge. The case involved a father accused of shooting the mother of his 2-year-old child during a child custody dispute. Chartier successfully convinced the jury that her client was acting in self-defense after that the mother had stabbed him with a knife. The client was acquitted of all counts. Later in 2015 Chartier won a reversal of a denial of a hearing on a motion for new trial for a funeral home director who had been convicted by a jury of embezzlement and RICO.  Before this issue, she successfully convinced the judge to throw out a number of counts because the wrong victim was identified in the pleadings. The case involved prepaid funeral plans, and the beneficiaries of the contracts were the victims not the funeral home owner. The case was sent back to the trial court to hold a hearing on the ineffective assistance of counsel claim. Chartier was named as one of Michigan Lawyers Weekly’s Women in the Law for 2013, and has been named as one of the top 25 women attorneys in the state. She is a founding partner of Alane Chartier, a woman-owned law firm.  It is always thrilling to see brave women hanging out their own shingle – but nothing gets me more than watching a fellow criminal lawyer who is obviously putting herself out there, and fighting with all she has for her clients. Now that’s what I call inspiring! The post Mary Chartier is Successfully Defending Clients in Lansing, Michigan appeared first on Women Criminal Defense Attorneys.
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